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Sometimes here on ~econ, we deal with serious topics in quite some depth.

Sometimes Den launches Denstravaganzas with semi-questionable content -- sometimes it's quite low level, full of snark. Today, it's hidden economic lessons from the worst possible places: the internet.

  • To strawman something is to take a weak version of an opponent's argument and crush it.
  • To steelman something is to take the strongest possible version of an opponent's argument... and crush that.

In this post I'm going to airman(?) something, i.e., extract some economic insight #809392 from something the opponent didn't really argue or meant (well, who knows...)


1: Fungibility in the feminized boob job domain1: Fungibility in the feminized boob job domain

Here is, not exactly the world's most intellectually impressive human

  • Money in = 1) parents' gift, 2) shake-down of sugar daddies
  • Money out = 1) real estate license, 2) boob job.

I mean, you can use some mental accounting and pretend that no, actually, dudes paid for your real estate license and parents fixed up your boobs, but it's the same goddamn thing.

Even if you literally received and paid for the two services you acquired with separate bank accounts (sugar daddy Venmo'd, you Venmo'd real estate; parents sent dollars to your Chase bank account, paid for tits with Chase bank card),

IT'S THE SAME THINGIT'S THE SAME THING

Fungibility, lady. It's a hard word, I get it; but it's an important word. And misunderstanding it means you misunderstand the monetary world you live in (#1467656). Good for you, tho, boobs look great.


2: The zero-sum mentality and betting markets2: The zero-sum mentality and betting markets

Here's a dude who does not understand zero-sum games.

Look, you can pretend financial markets are zero sum if you want (and if you have the mental acuity of a six-year-old) but they're just not: investments -> capital available for risk-taking -> enhanced production -> higher productivity, translating into higher wages/profits = we all get richer and better off. The fact that one trade in isolation is a zero-sum (negative if accounting for broker fees and slippage) doesn't mean that the entire system itself is zero-sum. (Yes, yes, Undisc: if betting markets were huge and liquid and people _actually_ used them for hedging risks, this argument would apply there too. They're not. I win.)

Second, so a pure betting market (without fees) would have been a zero-sum game, too. Setting up a betting house with a 5% take is not zero sum; it's the most obvious negative-sum game there is, also known as a Casino. Jezus, beluga.

Betting markets is just the right-wing equivalent of environmentalism. Same brainrot, same stupidity.

Me, you, take. Negative worldview; regulate, destroy, squander.

3 Opportunity cost of wasted efforts3 Opportunity cost of wasted efforts

Tying this all together with some actual reading: Zero-sum worldview (inability to understand what is and isn't fungible...? I confess it's a stretch...) is LITERALLY what's destroying our civilization.

Because prediction markets are mostly zero sum (#1480442) -- and up until they're routinely used to hedging real-life, value-improving activities (=insurance) rather than, like, betting on the latest Knicks game or whether some CEO mentions a word or bitcoin hit $x -- they're not building a better future. That means, whatever demographic and technological drag face us (#1476033) become that much harder to deal with when society's best and brightest are wasting their time and brainpower playing tricks.

We know and see this in Bitcoinland... what if all the treasury company twats had been building instead of parasiting?

Notes from a book I haven't reviewed yet, but I'm surprisingly astonished by:

p. 92: in a static economic environment, zero-sum, you can only get ahead by taking away from someone else; labor can only increase its incomes by extracting share from profits or lower taxes.

“Scarcity thinking kicks off a self-reinforcing doom loop, which results in more scarcity.”“Scarcity thinking kicks off a self-reinforcing doom loop, which results in more scarcity.”

When we approach lower growth, a more elderly society (fuck the boomers), a more risk-averse mentality, all manner of bad downstream consequences follow -- including a brain drain of people into zero-sum activities:

Authors invoke this gigantic NBER survey study

We find that a more zero-sum mindset is strongly associated with more support for government redistribution, race- and gender-based affirmative action, and more restrictive immigration policies. Zero-sum thinking can be traced back to the experiences of both the individual and their ancestors, encompassing factors such as the degree of intergenerational upward mobility they experienced, whether they immigrated to the United States or lived in a location with more immigrants,

SOCIOLOGICAL explanation for why low growth, thus zero-sum environments, fucks with our choices: risk aversion shoots up, ambitious people go into rent-seeking industries instead of (literal) moonshots or tinkering. We bet our depreciating moneys on Polymarket instead of investing in growing businesses that increase economic growth and improve the lot of all.

I dunno, man, it'd be better if we understood fungibility, zero-sum, and had a better intellectual environmentI dunno, man, it'd be better if we understood fungibility, zero-sum, and had a better intellectual environment

Tl;dr, Den just embodied the "someone is wrong on the internet" meme. Have a fun Saturday, econ pals

You cracked me up at intellectually impressive human. I suspect I would use it on my rather dense students at some point in time

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Heeee-heeee, yahz I can be so mean

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nice is boring

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The fiat stock market is zero sum, i would argue negative sum.

Many gamblers on SN. Not surprised, their president is a casino owner ;)

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No, it's not. I'm tired of answering this question, just go do some simple googling — or baseline reasoning.

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I was not asking :)

The amount of debasement, wars, death and suffering it produces, makes us worse in sum.

I know it's not the fault of the stock market, but none of the S&P corps would be there without easy printing.

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Its not the financial system doing that

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5 sats \ 2 replies \ @Lux 2 May

if you include the people running it in 'the system', yes it is

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wars, death, suffering and debasement seem like the competitive advantage of states and governments. Not finance or money. Get real, sir

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23 sats \ 0 replies \ @Lux 2 May
Get real

my favorite topic, Sir

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Precisely. Also, what calls?

This is 2026. We get DMs

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This is 2026. We get DMs

Not on stacker News we don't! Burn

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Risk aversion increasing is inconsistent with an increase in gambling, no?

Also, I hedge my negative-sum sports bets with prediction markets all the time. Checkmate and you're welcome.

Also, also, if prediction markets have smaller takes than traditional books as well easier ways out of bad wagers, then aren't they an improvement to the world?

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I'm not saying I'm against prediction markets, but I do think pitching it as some social good is a bit rich.

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It's like substituting chew for cigarettes. What's the problem?

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I think there are some things that make it a potentially bigger issue than traditional betting, like ease of access by minors, the frictionlessness of the interface, the ease of doing it alone, etc

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None of those issues seem intrinsic, at least in comparison to the online casinos that have been around for a long time already.

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I'm starting to think that literally having to sit down at a computer and use a mouse and keyboard was enough of a friction to prevent the population from going crazy, and that barrier has now been removed, and now people can simply ooga booga by pointing their fingers at the thing like babies

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Hard to argue with that

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that's its too minor, too insignificant, and too stupid?

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Also, I hedge my negative-sum sports bets with prediction markets all the time. Checkmate and you're welcome

yeah, you're one dude at the edge of internet irrelevancy (soz, no offense!)

Risk aversion increasing is inconsistent with an increase in gambling, no?

Individually, I see your point (but also, yolo-ing and hail mary gambles are a thing) -- if I'm less safe, more weary, why gamble mroe? -- but I think in aggregate it makes sense... if societies don't go for long shots and risky ventures in search of growth, there's little to no improvement, and the only way out is building zero-sum environments.

(I'll explain/explore in more detail when I've finished the book)

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if societies don't go for long shots and risky ventures in search of growth, there's little to no improvement, and the only way out is building zero-sum environments.

This part is correct. Risk aversion means you'd take a lesser expected return for a lower risk of total ruin. The problem is that risk aversion also means you would hold cash rather than wager it.

yeah, you're one dude at the edge of internet irrelevancy

Only until I hit it big on prediction markets. Also, which edge?

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our SN edge -- you know, the one with clankers and like twelve real people

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So, not the one that's close to being relevant

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I'm sure this is some witty Undisc comment I'm too stupid to grasp -.-

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You don't usually notice

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The abstract says they find that zero-sum thinking is correlated with intergenerational mobility. That could explain why more and more young people are adopting a zero-sum view.

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I zapped because I care

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what a canine legend!

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Stock might be positive-sum game. I mean we as humanity no longer live in caves, so clearly some value got generated and accumulated over ages via new technology and engineering.

I think the idea is "You find some $COMPANY that has potential to improve lives of many people and get good profits while doing that. You invest your money in that company. $COMPANY uses that money to deliver their product. You get your share of the profit as company generated value to humanity".

Of course the speculative component in the stock market is zero-sum (or negative-sum if you consider broker fees), but the 'find-and-fund high-potential companies' might be positive-sum.

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19 sats \ 0 replies \ @Solomonsatoshi 2 May -100 sats

Most censored post of last 24 hours.

https://stacker.news/items/1475219