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If you pay me onchain, I can see what UTXO(s) you've used to pay me with. No matter if you use electrum.

With that information, I can try cluster your wallet using heuristics and estimate your balance and who you transact with.

never heard of LN?

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Lots of caveats there.

If you open a channel to make payments, you have decent privacy. But you did not break the link from whoever you got that Bitcoin from. And if your node is public, opening new channels would be equivalent to address reuse.

Then, for receiving payments you're not in a good position. Would you share your LN node pubkey? Would you share a Bitcoin address instead? And then what, consolidate it together with your preexisting UTXOs?

LN is great but not bulletproof. And for the case of HOLDing into cold storage it doesn't help much.

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101 sats \ 2 replies \ @Lux 2 May

All this brain hoops for not learning to use swaps and LN.

NGMI

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111 sats \ 1 reply \ @m0wer OP 2 May

I think you don't understand privacy.

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1 sat \ 0 replies \ @Lux 2 May

Whatever makes you sleep at night, sweetheart

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Would you share your LN node pubkey?

yes why not? never heard about private and disposable LN nodes? Decoy nodes?

Buying a LSP channel in advance, without using any of your UTXOs... using a private disposable LN node... through that single fucking channel you can pass through infinite sats, endlessly.

These are just few examples... Are several scenarios to use.
Nobody is forcing you to run PUBLIC LN nodes. Private and disposable / decoy nodes are just fine.

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It's an option, for sure. The question is the privacy and costs that would have over the privacy and costs of CoinJoining.

As a rule of thumb anything over 10M sats will be cheaper to CoinJoin for the same level of anonymity (and the possibility of more, and measurable).

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22 sats \ 11 replies \ @Lux 2 May

you are comparing ln costs to on chain costs
two different worlds

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Exactly. Ones are proportional to the transaction amount and the others are fixed. Those lines intersect.

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1 sat \ 9 replies \ @Lux 2 May

you will pay coinjoin on chain costs and then open a channel, on chain also, to make a ln transaction
please make it make sense

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Not necessarily. The case of buying p2p and sending to cold storage is a very common example.

If you use a single UTXO onchain to coinjoin, you cannot pass more sats than you have in that UTXO...
Meanwhile through a single LN channel you can coinjoin as many sats you want.
More than that, if you are smart you can make it to leave NO onchain trace..
Just think about, even if you are traced, a single UTXO of 1M sats that is in a public block, in fact it was transferring let's say 10 BTC through that single channel and nobody have any trace (except the channel peers - but that is another aspect).

Think in perspective. Mastering LN is an art of using all its properties and solutions.

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  1. https://darth-coin.github.io/wallets/lightning-cleaning-machine-en.html
  2. https://darth-coin.github.io/wallets/bitcoin-and-privacy-en.html

People thatt are lazy and don't want to read and learn... fuck'em'all they do not deserve BTC in the first place.

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